SPEAKER_02 0:01

And that's it. World Cup 2026 is over. And what a way to go out. Never has a game left me wanting less. Like the World Cup final. Now, after watching that, Alex. What did you think about the World Cup final?

SPEAKER_01 0:23

Thought it was a Tuesday night, uh rainy night up in Stoke versus uh a National League side 0-0 at 85 minutes, and everyone's thinking Stoke are gonna win. 8-0. Um I just I just gobsmat really, I couldn't believe it. I I thought at least, you know, go down with football fighting the passion from Argentina for the other games that was such a big build-up and a hype. And you know, Spain, fantastic, masterclass, calm, composed, well deserved, even though it was good that Argentina did show resilience, and I thought was was good if that even if it meant the ugliest game in World Cup final history. But you know, you could see that uh Spain was still keeping their their cool and just really disappointed to see Argentina's behavior just all round, just um, you know, the way that they lacked responsibility with Fernandez getting a red card, really throwing Argentina then on a on an aggressive kind of like, well, it's sink or swim here, but we'll rather go with all our you know um fighting dirty kind of spirit, not in a way of passion fighting, the dirty kind of side and just no ideas, uh, look completely like you know, 15-year-olds running around the field. And it's just sad to see in that way, too, you know, because of such a great country of football and what they've given to football, and to see Messi as well. I know it's uh not a one-man show, but to see him go out with his teammates acting like 15-year-olds having a fight in a playground, just a little bit kind of like you know, lacked emotion, it lacked that that that real Argentina feeling. So, really disappointed in that.

SPEAKER_02 2:02

I mean it had emotion, just the wrong kind of it. It was an absolute pig of a game. I think it was one of the worst games of football I've ever watched. Terrible. And there's a few reasons. I mean, there's we kind of knew, so uh obviously a lot of people have been talking about how poor Argentina were. I think there's two sides of it though. I think what we saw was another master class from Spain, 100% and the ability to keep the ball, and that can drive you crazy. Uh they made they made a very good France team look very ordinary in the semi-final, and then against Argentina, the world champions, they made them look like I mean, lads who've never played football before, so they said let's get a load of uh Aussie Rills or Gaelic footballers onto a pitch and then tell them you gotta beat this Spanish side, you know. And it was really set, the tone was set, I think, early on, uh, with Enzo. I just think was just all over the place. It's funny, I do think there's some tactical things as well. I think the way Argentina's setup was very strange. We spoke a lot in this tournament about their way of playing in midfield with the midfielders being close to the ball, the distances of passes being short and working one-twos and round the corners, third man runs, all that. But what we saw was a much more orthodox, normal, European type game. Like Martinez, they obviously wanted to hit them on the break, so Gonzalez was playing, and he'd been effective coming off the bench, but he was terrible in this in this first half. Yeah, uh, that meant got Pavedes dropped to the bench, which I think meant they lost a lot of structure in midfield. I was shocked by that. I think he brings a lot to them, and then Martinez uh Devo Martinez was playing a lot of long balls, so they were the plan was clear. Let's just try and not get pressed by Spain when we do have possession, and we try and test our fullbacks, especially Poro uh with Gonzalez, and it just didn't work, and they really recognize that. I mean, at half time uh Gonzalez came off and Paredes came on, and actually, I think there's a few minutes when it looked like well, they might actually get a foothold in this game, but then um who was it Christian Romero went off injured, and the other uh Licha Martinez had already gone off injured, so suddenly they now have two centre backs that aren't the starting two centre backs, and I think that's right uh Melina is not the ball playing type of centre half that Romero Martinez is, and so suddenly without the two of them, yeah, they couldn't play out from the back, they couldn't play into Paredes. And Paredes was on one anyway. I don't know if he was pissed off about being dropped, but he should have been sent off as well.

SPEAKER_01 4:52

He was just uh agent ball running around a field, wasn't a football player. Ridiculous to not represent in a in a final, knowing that you've got a lunatic out there and no one can no one can stop him to say, hey, listen, you've got to calm it down, and and like but when you're on it like that, you can't you can't stop him in that sense no no more.

SPEAKER_02 5:10

No. I was I was wondering during the game, would he be taken off? Would uh Scaloni actually take him off again? Because from the first second he was testing the waters, like he got bucked straight away, and then everyone could have been people forget he could have been gone off a few minutes after that for a professional foul as well, like a player pulling back a player. Yeah, like he should have gone. Um but it is what it is. I mean, Argentina at the same rate, they got the extra time and they nearly scored at the end. Uh Simeone possibly could have scored, you know, and then suddenly if they get the penalties, yeah, yeah, and they win on penalties, everyone's saying it's another masterpiece by Argentina.

SPEAKER_01 5:50

Yeah, yeah. No, I I I I mean I did sense when Spain were really, you know, making them changes with Nico Williams and Pedri coming on. I do like that because that's my kind of management thinking too. So as soon as I saw that, I said, no, now it's now it's gonna be all throwing everything at the wall, and Spain have that defensive balance, which I spoke about um earlier on, is in the sense of like they can afford to say all of you do or do your stuff, but as long as we keep a little defensive balance, we'll create. And and as soon as I they got the disallowed goal, and then as soon as I saw the rebound coming up for the shot after after Martinez's save or the or the sort of deflected header out, I just thought a goal. Like as soon as I saw I just the football universe came straight away and I said, no, it's a wave of energy and it's gonna come along, just like Argentina did with it with Egypt and England. I just said, you know, that that's that's gonna be a goal, and and Spain have thrown everything at them. So good credit to Argentina for the the terrible way of like they didn't work out and then they held resilience so they know how England feel. Um and then I just thought sometimes uh, you know, I looked really looked at Messi, and I do now 100% know what he can't do anymore, and he can't drop into that middle too much and run with the ball. He can make a through pass, but who's up front? You don't have Batter Suter up front anymore, you don't have uh a Hernan Crespo like in out and wiggling around and finding Claudio Canigias and uh Aguero's Tevez, they're not there anymore. And we have to you have to go by Leave Messi higher just on the edge of the box, in and around there, but you have to change that formation.

SPEAKER_02 7:30

You have to change that formation fairness to Argentina there. I think they obviously were had two injuries, so they lost two subs, plus Enzo got sent off because Ladaro Martinez would have come on in normal circumstances, and then Messi could have dropped into that middle bit, and then he would Martinez would have been the the kind of the pass that he was looking for, and that was that wasn't an option that was available to him. So you kind of give them I I know what you're saying though, I agree with you. Um and even like his dribble, he's still a great dribbler, but he can't get away, he can't uh get that next gear and and accelerate away from a player, yeah. So he ends up having to beat the player like four times, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:16

Yeah, he goes in and around, and that's what I just thought. Like, if you've got the greatest player of whatever Argentinian history, South America in the world, and all the whole thing, I thought, well, if you can utilize him, you've got to do it. And I think he would have been so dangerous if you'd have just changed formation a bit. And Argentina started that first 10 minutes with that high press and ran on spec. And I thought, oh, okay, they you know, but it looked like a like a 4-4-2, and and uh and Messi was just so starved of the ball because the quality, at like we know, like wasn't uh McAllister, like couldn't and Rodrigo DePaul, like they weren't able to feed the ball higher and then get numbers higher. It just looked like they're like, let's keep it left and right, left. Spain just shift across back and forth. Messi was trying to like work around in pockets, but he had to come deep. Spain weren't worried about him being deep because they didn't, no one followed him. They said he can go there because we know he doesn't have the legs anymore. So it's sad. I I hate it because with such the greatness he's given everyone for 20 years, it's like you see your, you know, the dogs that you have for years when they have to slow down and walk with you slowly. And I just felt like, oh man, I feel a bit sorry for him out there, you know, like he's just he's wandering around and he's waiting for a moment and it's not it's not arriving. And and I just thought Scaloni, of course, I mean, I'd love to have been in his shoes to win the Copa America and and and a World Cup, but sometimes, you know, like you come up short tactically, where if the game is still zero-zero and you're the coach, you don't we know the Argentinian players have any fight. If you change a formation and it's and it's working with numbers higher, they're they're they're they're they're crazy anyway to sort of if they're in and around the goal, they'll do something, they'll create a little bit. But when you're sitting back in a in the low zone and just get into the middle zone a bit, I thought Scaloni, I thought, why don't you just why don't you just go with three at the back and just do like a you know uh uh a 3-3-4 or something can stretch them right across the top and really make um De La Fuente say it's the 80th minute and Argentina have gone like this. Why not? You're 0-0, you're playing like like shit. What have you got to lose? Throw everything like that's what I'd have done.

SPEAKER_02 10:27

It's a really interesting subject because since Scaloni took over, everything's gone right for him. Everything. Right, everything. But this final went spectacularly wrong for him. Yeah, he got it really badly wrong. Yeah. When you think about the final four years ago against France, and they came out amazing, and in many ways they were similar to what we saw in this tournament in the lead-up to the final, but in the final itself, that first half was the best performance Argentina had in the whole tournament. And you're kind of thinking, oh, maybe they can do something like that again, and they just couldn't. They were they were all wrong. I saw some good analysis just from basic things, like we can talk about all this player being in, that player not being in, or whatever, but just the distances, so the tactics, so the distances between the the players, so the fullbacks, there were some good images of when Taglia Fico had the ball in other games in the build-up to the World Cup, he had three options all within 10-15 yards of him, and now in the final, his closest he had three options, but they're all 30-40 yards away from him, you know. So it was obviously tall, it's a tactical decision, and it goes against everything that you would think Argentina are good at, and it just backfired. So it'd be interesting. I don't know if Scalone's gonna stay on, but it'd be interesting if he does to see how he rebuilds, and they do need to rebuild. And I as much as I love Messi, I think he's the greatest ever. I think the best thing he can do is go, but he still hasn't an estimate.

SPEAKER_01 11:56

Well, I said basically the same as look, if you're if if if we're in that that that position, yes, it's easy to react like he's done before. Copper America final loss to Chile, I retire. You know, Neymar's done it, but rightly so, Neymar, because it's a usual Brazilian story, like just enjoy your your 300 million in the bank and getting a helicopter from Rio to Santos training ground, like come on, like just you're not you're not a player anymore for that level. Just you know and uh I think that look, if if if the new coach comes in or Scaloni stays on, Messi can still play for Argentina because if you if it's if someone has put on weight and someone is misbehaving, like just clearly Messi's now just chilling on beaches, he's he's on yachts and he's he's got Pino Caladas and you can just see the pattern to say, listen, you're not being you're not being picked. I haven't mentioned I haven't mentioned my retirement, but you're not being picked because we're understanding you're losing interest with where you're going. And but the guy's super fit. He plays still professionally, he's a professional football player contracted in the MLS for shitloads of millions. He's got Adidas deals for millions. Now, if Scaloni stays on and he says, Oh, I've selected Messi, he probably might still he might Messi will be fine to sit on the bench and he'll come on. He's got another cap for Argentina, he's got another cheeky penalty, he's got another goal. Then he can decide and say, you know, in 2027, before I'm 40, he might say, Yeah, I'll retire because Copper America is another year later, so obviously that's a longer stretch. And I think he's only going to play it out by a 2027, another MLS year. And why not balance it if Argentina select him for sit on the bench, come on for 20 minutes? I would do that. Because if you're still playing, scoring 50 goals for the in the into Miami, you still can you can still can finish as long as you show your fitness and it's messy.

SPEAKER_02 13:47

Definitely get it from the player's point of view. I would never tell a player you should retire because once you retire, that's pretty much it, you know. Um I would never tell a player that, but I think from an Argentina point of view, at what point is it? At what point do you say now is it high? I know he's just scored loads of goals in the World Cup, and so you can be like, What have you gotta tell the second top goal scorer that he's not gonna like it's not like they have Messi coming through? But and maybe the decision is keep him along for a few more years, but we see the difference in them this year from four years ago. The difference would be only greater in another four years, and I just wonder, can you really afford to put everything into like your whole a country like Argentina with their history? Can you really afford to build your whole structure for the next four years for a player who will be 43 or 44?

SPEAKER_01 14:38

Well, I I I I don't think he's looking the World Cup will be impossible because everything is is But that's what but that's the point of it, you know?

SPEAKER_02 14:47

I mean, yeah, the Copas are great and all Brazil and Argentina, to lesser extent Uruguay, it's the World Cup for them.

SPEAKER_01 14:55

Oh, I know.

SPEAKER_02 14:56

I know it's the Copa America's for Colombia, Ecuador, Paraguay, Uruguay, you know, it's great to win it and they will they'll be up there, but like the preparation for the World Cup in four years starts now for Argentina, you know.

SPEAKER_01 15:11

Yeah, and I think that we clearly know that uh Julio Álvarez is Messi's replacement to so so I think Messi would be happy to be an influence on the team. I think to to be a part of Argentina and know that he's I think he'd he he would actually like it's like a humble way of the greatest God is still with us on the bench. And and and because I still think like you said, he scored eight goals. So we're we're going by how good is someone from you're only as good as like they say your last game or not the World Cup final, but what you've just done. He scored eight goals in in eight games, so still he's the best Argentinian player on paper in attack.

SPEAKER_02 15:48

For sure. Uh look, it is. It's a real I know there's that side of it, it's like it seems crazy, but I I do think the World Cup, I don't think it's coincidence there were so many players from from the top team scoring lots of goals, and I think they're part of the reason is that because they were playing a lot weaker opposition. Yeah, yeah, of course it's a fact. But to your point, like Messi being able to sit on the bench. I thought I said going into the tournament that it seems like this Argentina team have found a way. One of their strengths was that they do have that option, that Messi would play or sit on the bench if they have options with or without him. But then apart from the second game, he's played every minute. And like, I don't know, like if you have Messi, yeah, he might be okay sitting on the bench, but are you gonna be the one who makes that decision? I don't think so. And Messi is never gonna say, put me on the bench, not because he's egotistic, but which player would ever say that? Yeah, no player would ever say that, and of course, it's the coach.

SPEAKER_01 16:46

What I'm saying is the coach will chat about it to say a new one or whatever, because they will have to put in Martinez and Alvarez will have to be their starters, there's no more sitting behind Messi. Now, I think that if Messi goes into um in a in a 4-3-3, a three up the top, and Messi is the number nine, just in behind Martinez and Alvarez, because how I see if um if Messi is in and around the box, like if we look at um the the Egypt game, the passing when he plays it vertically forward and he moves onto it and bam, bam, bam, he's still got that. So that is that is where it's like, oh my god, this guy is unbelievable. Look, he's played it in, he's quickly moved, he's got another one, two, a combination. He still has that. And I would still take that if he doesn't want to retire to put him in and around the box. But the formation for Argentina, like it looked, it looked all over the place. Like I know the player selection's a little bit off because they don't have big, big in-depth attacking attacking um players as much anymore. But no, I I think that he can still do a job, and but to reach the next World Cup, I just think that he'll he'll go with football from the MLS 2027 season all the way, and I think he'll just do another qualifying campaign with Argentina and just then you know, just sort of say uh just retire. You know, why not be 40-year-old, retire and and and that's it.

SPEAKER_02 18:11

So it's we've spent enough time talking about the losers. What did you think about Spain?

SPEAKER_01 18:20

Uh I mean, where do you start? I mean, it's just it's just such a masterclass of um of everything. Concede in one goal is absolutely like with no panic of of other pressure that was in and around their box, they still seemed, yeah, of course, uh other other countries had shots and stuff like that. Um, I think the way that um Yamal knew that this is I've got my individual and I'm but I we need to win this as a team, and I thought that was amazing. And and obviously he'd done his 1v1s, which he's that's you should allow him to do, that's his freedom. But I just thought you could see it was such an organized machine that the all the players just bought into it and stuck by it because they felt comfortable and safe in attack and in defense and reorganizing the ball back, winning it back. And you know, of course, possession-wise, clean passes, um, great coaching decisions. Um I just was I just was impressed completely and being a young team, not a physical team, not an ugly team either, not a lucky team. Um, but uh you know, all around, I just I just thought like this this is phenomenal. And then of course they've already started rebuilding, so their rebuilding was was still doing well, you know, over the last sort of eight years, and then of course they still win the Euros 2024, you know, and now they still then now they win a World Cup and they're still looking like that they've got rebuilding to do.

SPEAKER_02 19:51

And um, yeah, the best player is 19.

SPEAKER_01 19:55

So he's won the Euros and the World Cup, Euros and the World Cup. So that's how frightening it is. Um, and the way that he did it, he done it maturely, uh Yamal. Like I don't we know the Barcelona kid gets a little bit, you know, this is my style, this is me, and and that's fine, you know, he's one of the the greatest players in the world at the moment. But I just I just think that to put him into it, the Spanish system, like we said about when the Argentinians, Brazilians, they all meet together, they play their way. And I just think Spain have their DNA, they have their way. All the academy kids are developed in a certain way, their coach education is great. Um, and you can clearly see that they all play for the biggest clubs in the world. A lot of them are in are in the Premier League as well, playing that fast, fast transitional football and understanding pressure. And of course, I think that's an advantage as well in some way. Some the ones that play in La Liga obviously focus a bit more on ball possession, short, medium passes. Um, the passing quality is so high, as you could see on some of the stats from Rogery. Um and then I I just think as well, like they their finishing can improve, I guess, if you find a weakness of a deadly finisher, which they don't even have to worry about it because as long as they they still work with about four or five strikers that are in their choice, um, they'll be fine. And and of course, you know, they've got time to make find a new striker that could be their their new their new go-to, like a Fernando Torres, Raul, or someone like that.

SPEAKER_02 21:26

Um, but I think it's a funny one that they went from that kind of sequence of strikers, like you said, David Villa, Fernando Torres, and they came after Raul for Ventas, and then suddenly, since you go mid-followed, they haven't, yeah, they haven't really produced their top class. Uh like Marata was obviously a kind of issue for them in the previous tournaments because he could do everything, he could do everything well apart from score goals. Yeah. Oyazaval seems similar enough. I'd say he's a bit more decisive than Marata, but he's still not top top. level but it's a f it's uh interesting uh uh subject Spain because it's easy to talk about Argentina there's so many threads there's the tactical side of it there's the messy side of it there's the scaloni side of it there's the the discipline side of it but with Spain they're just so uh good at what they do nothing flashy yeah they're just classy very good very solid team they'll strangle teams to death and then when there's last grasp gasp of air in them they finish them off you know yeah yeah it is interesting Yamal wasn't at his best he obviously came in he hadn't kicked the ball in three months so he was kind of building up so it is interesting to see how good they can become Rodri will be older I think the next World Cup is probably going to be beyond them he's had a lot of injuries I don't think his club career is even I mean there's talk from going to Real Madrid he still have some years at the very top but uh four years time especially if he's still playing in the Premier League 34 but could he have 34 does knee injuries you know that he's had that catch up on him at some point you think I think that if if he stays fit and and solid season performances I think he'll be in 100% because he'll be the Marcos Senna.

SPEAKER_01 23:20

Remember Marcos Senna?

SPEAKER_02 23:21

Of course yeah not 2008 and he was he was around that same age he was about the 34 mark he just literally just said you guys do that and I'll just filter things I'll make sure there's balance and and cover um but but of course obviously if we I think they even have Zuba Mendi who's younger and okay he's not Rodri yet but I think there's a lot I think Arsenal fans are in for a pleasant surprise this season because Rodri took at least a year to settle for Man City. Zuba Mendi I think he's had a year and I think he's about to become a much bigger player for Arsenal going into next season and the seasons ahead so he is the obvious replacement for Rodri if if he can't make it you know yeah yeah I was surprised I was very surprised at how well Kubarsi played in the World Cup but then he never really came under pressure you watched him in the Champions League you watch him for Barcelona and he seems to g struggle I mean he wouldn't with that high line that they play. Yeah but I just thought when like against France the power of Mbappe or the runs of Dembele that they would just that he would just struggle with the physicality of it but no sign of any of it Spain were clinical. Yeah I mean Spain they're as much to blame for the pig of a final as Argentina really because their style of play just strangles the other team to death.

SPEAKER_01 24:44

Yeah yeah I mean obviously luck plays a big part of it and Argentina's luck had had finally ran out because even at 80 minutes at 0-0 you're still thinking like you know the dream's on Sardini could win this Argentina they can they can they can win this final so you're kind of like oh my lord like they haven't this is but that's if football doesn't owe a style of play possession doesn't owe anything you know one goal if Simeone was uh a Lautaro or a messi could that have been a bit more of a a clinical chance um at goal but um but I I I do think it's it was a bit disappointing the way the World Cup took off with the with the great nations the favorites let's call them all the all the all the superstars and then everything started to slowly fizzle out and Spain with the hump with the modest superstars let's call them but not the standout taking all the attention and they're the rest of them all fizzled off England England England gave up so that they went as far as they could go and that was it they they literally gave up they bowed down to Argentina and said all right that which was ridiculous. France bowed down to Spain gave up France 4-0 down in the third place still still still it's a game so then that looked like a school playground game they gave up then when obviously they made the comeback it got exciting for them and they're like why not so yes it left the fans worldwide with a bit of a but tactically and and and and everything was just all over the place you know 10 goals in a game at that level of these players it's like this it cannot happen really like 6-4. And then for Argentina in the final one of the favorites and the whole one of the the greatest of all time player and this and that and it just was just given to Spain not that Spain didn't do the work but the way that the rest of everyone just fizzled off and I was just like really like it's you know you know you know England and and France like I thought you know they would have done a little bit more.

SPEAKER_02 26:39

Even if you lose a game and the game was 2-2 and you lost on penalties that's what I mean it was kind of like England gave the game up for Argentina 2-1 in the last you know five minutes or whatever like that which is great for Argentina but I thought England would have made history beat them like 3-1 gone on to the final and lost obviously um but yeah so obviously we can't ask for all of it you know to be all the way electric to the to the top because players it's so tough that to win a world cup it's it's a mental thing as well and so who do you think was like if in four years time we're sitting here recording ahead of a another world cup and we're talking about 2026 who will who'll be the player who is your player of the tournament but the one that you think will stand the memory test uh the like for for um so for the next world cup what did you mean so who would who would be so who do you think like in in a few years when you think back about this world cup okay who would you think who will come to my to mind who was your kind of player of the tournament because Rodery won won the golden ball or the player of the tournament and as great as he was and I understand you probably have to give it to him because he was so uh dominant in the final and semi-final so he is the decisive player but for me when I think back about the very beginning of the tournament and a lot of this is um due to the fact that I was I was following Argentina as the team but for me it's messy that I look back on. I don't know who you look back on and think who was the player of the tournament for you.

SPEAKER_01 28:12

Yeah there's a there's a there's a good good question actually Lula's a good one um there there's a few but we can't now go a few in general all over the place um uh messy for what he did but okay that's what we know he can do he's just scored he scored the goals and of course we people are waiting for the old school dribbles only dribbles four people and scores look that's not really that's not really messy anymore um I I think that Rodri for just for leading and captaining in a team that is just phenomenal to stay you know uh to to control everything can keep and and obviously not just uh the team doing well his stats were they're through the roof and I know I hate all these stats all the time but you can clearly see on the field as well where it was just dominance his yeah he's his presence dominance um just phenomenal then I've got the other side where I see the young adventurous playing way beyond his years and he reminds me exactly of Paul Gascoyne Jude Bellingham I just not to not to be English bias of that I just thought if you're breaking on a scene that his second World Cup and he's just turning 23 um was it is he's best of all the pro the things like that but you know I just thought that to to to a nation like England you've got this young kid as looking more like your physical impacting leader than Harry Kane. Like uh there's so he he's you know he's in a part of of maybe for for young player of the World Cup or something like that which they give I don't know your Mal obviously would have if you know three months prior to his injury would have been absolutely electric. He would have scored three four goals easy he would he would have definitely won that um but I'd say young young player I'd say jude bellingham I would I would sort of go for but then Roger like it's hard it's it's it's easy because I mean he didn't just have a few decent appearances and and was in the team and then won the World Cup like he was a part of everything.

SPEAKER_02 30:14

He led them to the World Cup so he's he was the face of this team he was obviously the captain but he was he's the person we think of I mean in the Euros two years ago we thought of Jamal his great goal against France how good he was he looked amazing at that time he was like the best player in the world he was 16 you know I'll give you what Luke I'll give I'll give you a flight a funny sort of um like like an analysis of years and years back and how World Cups have kind of been won with certain these certain players you know even if we okay you go back to to to 94 who was who was the Roger player for Brazil Carlos Dunga Dunga did Dunga go play for Man United he was still playing in Jubilee Walter in Japan Premier League so you know that's that's where he was playing at the time I I'm pretty sure we can search that up or whatever it is but um because he'd previously played for sampa or whatever obviously he went for a trap and they the coach uh scolari at the time was like no no I need this is this is my guy Marcos Senna Cartuso ummanuel Petit France 98 Zedam went ahead and Petit just sort of scooped things up and played them beautiful passes in and Patrick Vieira sat in as well Rodri's done the same now that's where I I feel that England fell short you've got Rice and Anderson doing doing what who's doing what here for two three one yeah of course you've got two but who's like what you know so I think that um neither of them can control like midfield they don't they don't control the pace of a game I've said this well I don't I haven't watched Anderson play that much but from what I'm seeing he looks like a Jarra type player yeah yeah he's definitely that energetic side technically for then rice with the ball Declan Rice is not as good a player as he is in certain he's not a he doesn't control the tempo and I think it's a really good point you raise because I actually randomly saw a video of Rodri being interviewed by I think it was Gary Lineker and he was asked why does Spain how does Spain produce these types of midfielders yeah and it's so funny because the answer was something like yeah it's because we do boxes like the first thing we do every day is boxes it's always we're always touching the football and I'm thinking but that's everywhere everywhere in Europe anyway trains the same way and I genuinely think there's a there's a part of it that is cultural in the sense of like even playing five aside in Spain here the sweat the heat you try and play so you have to play at a slower tempo you have to understand and suddenly for for me coming from Ireland and playing in that kind of northern European style where you turn the fullbacks and you run and you run around and it's freezing cold by the way so you have to run around you know uh so then you come here and you got this like fat Spanish player you've never seen before and you're thinking he can't be any good and he's just and he's not even particularly good but he just understands like this is this is an hour this is 90 minutes and it's just controlling it and he can just take his touch and knock it sideways and you're running around and you're just dying on your feet because it's 30 degrees 35 degrees remember the the the player I coached last season uh Nando yes yeah exactly but he wasn't playing for the team he was like no I want to move the ball I was like get the ball forward man it's 80 minutes like I don't care about he was just like Ali Ali coach uh it's okay it's like but that's it it's like these Spanish it's a cultural thing between like I don't think it's a case of oh you can just cut coach this I mean there's a limit there's a obviously a point of you can coach it if if there's a player lucky enough to go through a system where he has the same type of coach all the way up and can show them how to control the pace of a game but it comes from just I think it's a cultural thing and that culture isn't just a football culture it's a it's a way of living culture it's an under it's living in extreme heat temperatures or or playing against like different people and different systems and I think so when Rodri gave that answer it wasn't a very good answer because you're kind of thinking but that's what everyone does anyway. In Ireland we we do boxes you know so but we don't have Rodri playing for us so what is the answer and I it can't be as simple as I was coaching.

SPEAKER_01 34:46

But it's just that that's what just made me really think of like you know that little bit of analysis on each of the teams and like just going back to when France um evolved after that makalele Sat Royan I know obviously island difference they come close to qualifying each time they're a bit like that's obviously just generational of of new strikers and and fast wingers and stuff but um Edgar Davids Edgar Davids um and I think you know with the attacking presence that England have you know you just just have one of them there just saying like listen like we've got to get numbers forward like that and that's why I see when you Javi Javi doing the same winning the Euros and you know and and he's got he's got the animal behind him Sergio Ramos but Javi's there to he makes Ramos feel safe just give him the ball he already knows what to do next you know Tony Cruz was another one. Tony Cruz yeah so exactly even the ones that you know apologize if I'm missing some of the big other countries like this Tony Cruz and that's where you see how they won these World Cups what was that where where was that player? Yes they had the um Meza Erzuls yes they had the Mbappes but you've got that guy who's still watching everything when we lose the ball and that's where I see you know these euro winners Copper America winners um World Cup winners um and Diego Simeoni was that for Argentina as well like just ready to scoop up things you know this is who are Catuso um so you know that's where I I think England fell short when it came to to play in France uh to well to a French team to to the Spanish team um they just you know they they they had two talented players but they he used them completely wrong so so that's that was just my analysis of like a Rodri winning the world cup and the javis before because they allowed Iniesta to play they allowed the players in front of them to to do everything they want so yeah so moving on who's gonna win the world cup in 2020 or 2030 sorry 2020 2030 so I I thought about it the other day and I'm gonna go for Brazil Wow wasn't expecting that yeah why Brazil I mean they showed nothing in this world cup yeah and that's that this yeah this one's done and dusted and they needed to sometimes when you need to go out and you need to realize that the team was a shambles from from two years ago where it started. It was they were in chat they didn't know what to do. They were you know I know the coaches that they were hiring um which is fine from club level they they bounced around a few they got interms in um the interims already know in Brazil it's famous that when you're when you're coaching uh whichever club it might be when they call you in it's because they know that you just know that the culture of the players coming in like um Lee Carsley for England came in for what four games he already knew like listen I'm I'm not gonna get this job like I know I've won three games and I've I've scored we scored seven against Andorra we scored five against Montenegro we score it's great for me to to get another club job and say look you know I didn't concede the goal or whatever I might have done but you're not going to get the job um and I think that uh the Brazil players up and coming is is pretty frightening that you know they've made they've they've gone out in humiliation um like with Germany when they got beaten seven 7-1 in the semi-final um and I just think now they've tried a Europe they're trying a European coach obviously you can't blame him for for for everything to come in and fix all the attention was built around Neymar which is so bad you know what I mean but I just think that with Esther Vaughan um Hendrik um Rodrigo still only like 23 or 24 if I'm wrong I'm not sure or something with Vinicius Vinicius is what 25 24 you know I just think that they're on a they're on a they've accepted it they're being humble to say all right Neymar's out now that's good um and just you know that they're all now geared up to to sort of build a new a new talented team with all the jet new new talent that's coming up and I just think that when their DNA comes back in that we're Brazilian we're not european so Carlos Angelotti probably under the review they've said look we want you to stay on because we know you've got great management relationism with players we're not asking you to do a tactical masterclass from AC Milan or from you know Real Madrid but Real Madrid it was players that won it because the Real Madrid had that DNA Ronaldo Benzema all the Tony Cruzes they did it and he was just like you know let's let's drop Benzema in a little bit here let's push Ronaldo out on the on the right side to come in and score and let's do and I think if they Brazil with all the talent that's up and coming um and and and Angelotti doing his last bowout if he does do this World Cup um I know he's got the Copper America I just think yeah Brazil will will will come great again and that's where I'm seeing the the individual talent is frightening that they have coming up.

SPEAKER_02 39:45

Well I think uh when you listed off some of the young players there you kind of realize Jesus yeah they they do have good players to come through and four years' time I'm sure there'll be plenty more names there at that point so actually when you say it like that I mean I think a big thing is what you've mentioned I think like I can't spend this whole tournament talking about the importance of having a manager from that country and then say oh Brazil can win it with actual ali. I still I agree with you in that sense get that DNA back get a get a Brazilian manager in who understands how they play what their strengths are what makes them tick and gets them playing a level above their collective level and then but for me and I hope to God Italy arrive at that point soon because you see what they're doing with Syria I don't think it suits them they try to play this open football and I'm sure for for fans it's great to watch and all that but I want Italy to be the great defenders of the you know of the football world I want them to have the nestas the great defenders of the past you know the Maldinis yeah yeah I mean that would be that would be amazing that's what the World Cup should be you know and it's it misses having Italy there. But they need to be good. They don't deserve to be there. They need to produce players and start going back to what they're good at.

SPEAKER_01 41:07

Well now they're talking about getting Pep Guardiola aren't they?

SPEAKER_02 41:10

Yeah man I hope that doesn't happen.

SPEAKER_01 41:12

I really hope that doesn't happen like that you can't it does it's nothing to do with and then how much you're gonna pay him the Italian Federation can't afford that. There's ways I know I know that we we know the ways that it's gonna be and you know it but as exactly I mean can you imagine now but to finish on Italy could you imagine now when the World Cup qualifiers start the Euros they'll qualify obviously you we know that with all respect to the countries that that are in the European Nations League and stuff we know that there's Italy will be there in the Euros but can you imagine and being an Italian fat like national and then you're not sure you're you're like on the verge of like will we qualify for this world cup and imagine the nerves and the panic from the players and the things like it's pretty frightening that if you don't go to a fourth world cup like you it's it's like I don't I wouldn't even know what to think. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 42:12

They need to get back that but at the same time like I just said it's not like they deserve it's not like they've been hard done by they deserve what they get but I just hope for as fans that we can get back a great Italian team you know Italians back in there for 2030 I think it's gonna be hard to look beyond Spain as well though but for almost for the same reasons it'll be in Spain but as well they the team they have is still so young Kubarci is what 20 uh Nico Williams um but the good thing is Spain doing that it means that other teams understand even though yes Spain haven't changed their DNA from from when it all started in 2008 but yes there there is ways to beat Spain if you even if you do analyze the final of Argentina if there's 0-0 to 80 80 minutes you know Spain will have to start to change things now because they're not stupid they know that they're gonna be playing England's France's again Germany's and Netherlands and you know go into that world cup in in on the home soil Brazil lost it in Brazil you know what I mean and that's like that's it was a clear Brazil are going to win the World Cup in 2014. And in the end it's Argentina in Brazil in the final you know so it's more like oh my lord you know here they come again and then they lost you know 1-0 in in in in that final but but uh I'm not I'm not sure I I don't if it's four years out they've just won the world cup so it's hard to say oh there's a better team than them today because there isn't they've just won the world cup but four years is a long way away and teams generally don't win back to back world cups so if the if you were asking me will Spain win the World Cup I would say probably not but at this time to try and pick a team who will no one looks close enough like France maybe who knows

SPEAKER_01 44:00

The what's just left off.

SPEAKER_02 44:01

Um I mean and I don't think like we talk about players coming through at Brazil. I don't see the same quality. I think there's a few young players coming through with Argentina, but I was looking today at what the potential lineups might be. It's quite similar to what it is now, except a bit older. And in place of Messi, you have Garnaucho. And I'm just like, if that's if that's the replacement for Messi, Argentina are a long way off from running anything against him.

SPEAKER_01 44:30

Well, that's what I'm just meaning. I'm just meaning with the way that kind of like um let's see it. Like, if you've got a Garnacho that's was was trying to like be too big for Man United and making comments and making posts this stupid X, whatever it's called, the platform, and I don't have that, but I understand. Like taking little cheap shots at Ruben Amory, regardless. I'm I'm a coach, I understand. I've made bad decisions, or I'm players don't like my decisions, players like my decisions. But putting all these behind keyboard worries, putting a thumbs up about Ruben Amory being fired, and it's not a good sign for being whatever he is, 1920, and yes, went to Chelsea, 20 million, doing a good doing a few good stepovers and a few good comeback goals, it's not. And then, and then still like thinking that he's already a superstar, Argentina don't pick him. He's gone on loan to Aston Villa now. As soon as Aston Villa with Yuna Imre, you don't mess around with him, like he's not interested in this. Rashford came in and actually was like, Oh my god, I have to play to show my value here. And he did. Rashford was hot, he was electric, which is a disappointing topic for that. Tuchel doesn't like him. Don't know why he picked him. And um, you know, and for now, you're on loan, your career's a bit on edge here, uh, Garnacho. So uh you haven't done anything, you know what I mean? Like you you haven't so knowing that um uh Garnacho is is is Argentinian with like with that could that be the future and look already what he's doing? And then you've got Julio and Alvarez who's scoring 20, 25 goals a season, um you know, uh that that they're the sort of players you wanna you want to build around um for the next Argentina generation that's that that's coming through. So yeah, it'd be interesting, especially.

SPEAKER_02 46:15

Oh well, I'm I'm really looking forward to it already, the next cycle. And I think I mean time to bring this show to a close, but I think uh hopefully maybe we'll have a we'll have a contract negotiations offline uh and see if maybe we can come back uh before the European season kicks off and maybe do a show and maybe a format we can change it up a little bit or whatever. We'll be on the same time zone. We'll be on the tame zot time zone same time zone, yes. Alex do you want to tell the world where you're going?

SPEAKER_01 46:51

Uh well I mean I haven't I haven't arrived there yet, so I don't want to say anything. I don't want to jinx anything, so I think if we set up another another you know, another podcast, then I can really like you know I don't want to jinx anything. That's that's my bad luck.

SPEAKER_02 47:06

Maybe we can do a uh David Brent style office uh documentary series where we just follow you around in your new job and uh fly on the wall, you know. Okay, but that's good. That's a that's something that's a cliffhanger for the listeners. So when we come back, you'll have a bit more insight into where Alex is. Yeah. Um it's been great, Luke.

SPEAKER_01 47:30

Thanks for the World Cup. It's been amazing. I can't believe it's over. You know, it's been a great, great stuff, summer still going, but great when the World Cup's on and it and it was one of uh you know, really great World Cup, it was one of them uh really exciting uh hydration breaks and uh uh concerts at the World Cup final where you just leave and see players like Messi sitting in the dressing room thinking what's going on out there. And what makes me laugh is like can you imagine people like Maradona, you know, like sitting there saying, you know, what the hell is this? All right, you know what, guys, let's do some cocaine.

SPEAKER_02 48:01

Let's let's just enjoy it looks like Parlades was doing that anyway in memory of the big man, you know. But uh great stuff, Alex. Thank you as well. Thanks for being part of this. I've loved it, and hopefully, like I say, we can go again for the European season and and maybe expand a little bit in how we do this show, whatever that means.

SPEAKER_01 48:25

Perfect. No, great Luke. Thanks very much. I've enjoyed every minute, so uh yeah, look forward to the next one. Adios, adios.